I think that the idea of thinking of your writing in the larger context of the conversation that it is participating in is an insightful perspective for people to have. It brings a certain level of importance and gravity to the work that you are doing and, at least to me, gives me more of a motivation to put my best foot forward in my writing. I feel like when you’re doing work for a school assignment, you’re more inclined to not hold yourself to standards beyond the rubric because it’s “just an assignment for school.” But, when you view it like this, you are inclined to hold yourself to a higher standard. Additionally, I also find the psychology of the order in which the “they say” should be placed to be interesting. I always knew that the “they say” should come before the “I say,” but never bothered to think about why. Now, I see that it is important because I am entering a conversation, and it is far more logical to introduce this conversation that I am entering before I offer my own opinions instead of diving right in. Adding on, I think it is also a way of making sure that my ideas are what the reader walks away with instead of who/what I am responding to. If I included my opinions before explaining other’s, then those ideas would be fresher in the reader’s mind instead of mine. By making sure that my thoughts are the last thing the reader sees in a paragraph, they are more likely to remember my point of view. Furthermore, I appreciate the emphasis that this reading puts on constantly reminding the reader of the claims that you are responding too. I have noticed in my own writing that it is very easy to get lost in your thoughts, and one way that I have learned to combat this is always making sure to anchor back to either my topic sentence or my thesis. I have noticed that this is something that many people struggle to do, and I think that it is a very helpful concept for people to implement into their writing.
Intially, I found the message to “give writing a point” to be interesting. I found this to be interesting, because I feel like there is no point in writing if you do not have a point or no reason. But then further reading uncovered the meaning behind this message: to not only indicate what your thesis is, but to explain what larger conversation is. I found this ideal to be insightful. I think that my past writing was all superficial. I would do “just enough” to answer the prompt or to fulfil the page count. I would simply state my thesis without connecting my topic to the bigger picture or furthering the conversation. Furthermore, I think the sequence that the authors explain was interesting but helpful. It was clear and concise. Explain your “why” early into your writing because not doing so results in a disinterested reader. I feel as though this was an aspect of writing that I overlooked, whether it be an article that I read and quicky lose interest in or in my own writing. I would drone on and on and take multiple paragraphs to fully get my point across. This passage was eye opening for me and my own writing. I also found the author’s advice pertaining to entering arguments extremely helpful. I cannot begin to tell you how many high school debates I participated in, or simple arguments with my siblings, where I could not find my footing. This issue was also prevalent in my writing. Argumentative essays were always the hardest essays for me to write, I think partly because I did not have the proper tools to thoroughly construct an argument. I think what the authors say about “entering conversations with what others are saying and then add your own opinions” is useful and beneficial advice. I know had I had this information when writing argumentative essays, I would have been more successful in using others’ opinions to strengthen the point that I was trying to either argue for or against.
I found it interesting how this chapter really emphasizes the importance of situating one’s argument within a broader conversation. The idea of the thesis not just standing alone but actively responding to something else highlights the interactive nature of academic writing. This approach can help make arguments more engaging and relevant by showing why they matter in the first place. As well as the chapters other focus on introducing what “they say” early on is very helpful as well. The readers need to be able to fully grasp the writers point with context and addressing others’ views whether they are opposing or existing, allows for an even smoother transition into one’s argument. There were also many templates that I find very helpful when learning a new way to write an essay, or something to make it stronger. The template for introducing “they say” is a very good tool, especially since sometimes people can struggle on how to frame their writing. The templates help to make it easier to organize ones owns thoughts, and these can really help and improve one’s writing by making arguments clearer.
“Starting with What Others Say” was an interesting chapter that provided me with insightful tips about how to properly enter a conversation. I found it helpful that the authors suggested some good ways to engage your reader before jumping right into direct quotes, paraphrasing, or summarizing someone else’s work. They Say I Say suggests hooking in your reader by starting with an anecdote, presenting the opposing side of an argument, stating a personal view, or describing a widely held, universal view. The chapter then advises the importance of introducing your “they say” quite early on so that the rest of your writing has a clear purpose. In addition, the authors state the importance of returning to these claims through the implementation of “return sentences” (26) frequently throughout the remainder of your writing to refresh the readers about the main argument. The book provided me with very useful templates to perform all that tactics I have previously laid out, which I found especially useful. All in all, I found this chapter quite helpful and insightful when it comes to teaching me how to properly and effectively enter a conversation to strengthen my own arguments.
When you are writing an argument you should always start off by stating what others have said about the topic, usually the opposite side to your argument. “Remember you are entering a conversation and therefore need to start with ‘what others are saying'” (20). This is helpful to know where to start when beginning your argument.
When you state the opposite side to your argument, “state your own position and the one it’s responding to together” (21). This could probably double as your thesis in your essay.
I like how there are various ways to introduce your view along with someone else’s view. For example, you can start with a quote, a fact, statistic, an anecdote or just simply stating the other idea and your opposing one. Although it is important to note that whichever way you choose must be relevant to your topic. (22).
I like the template for when you are introducing an ongoing debate. Helping you “explore the issue you are writing about before declaring your own view.” (26). This could be helpful as a way to set up your essay with the points you want to talk about.
Something that is helpful about the text is the great amount of examples and templates provided in the text. They truly give us as readers and learners a sufficient amount of information to use in our own work.
Something that was insightful in the text is when it talks about order. “This story also illustrates an important lesson about the order in which things are said: to keep an audience engaged, a writer needs to explain what he or she is responding to—either before offering that response or, at least, very early in the discussion.” its very important to keep the readers of your work engaged and ready to read on, so making sure that everything is in its correct place is insightful
Something I found curious is that “Instead of opening with someone else’s views, you could start with an illustrative quotation, a revealing fact or statistic, or— as we do in this chapter—a relevant anecdote.” I can see why revealing facts/statistics or something along those lines would be a great catcher, but i wouldnt see myself doing so every time because I wouldn’t want it to be redundant.
Something interesting was the specific template for introducing something implied or assumed
Something that I thought was very interesting was introducing the idea of debate. As Graff and Birkenstein point out, Dr. X was unable to debate his point and did not mention any controversy, which made his point feel like it lacks value. The templates for this were very helpful as they gave examples of how to use they say, applying an idea, introducing a debate, or keeping they say in your argument. I relate to Dr. X because sometimes I forget to include my overall argument and continue to ramble. Most of the time, I reread my arguments and find that I forget to include my they say, in which I then include what my overall argument was. Something that I enjoy doing is introducing a controversial topic that is commonly accepted in society and saying how I do not agree with it. Disagreeing with commonly known ideas makes me feel like my argument is more known and attracts readers. One very important reminder for me was to summarize a they say argument and then go into the deeper meaning while also connecting back to the thesis. Lastly, it is most helpful for me to remember to keep it simple and make sure to talk about and make connections to my previous points.
I found that starting with a quote or a fact, rather than someone else’s views interesting. While I can see how a strong fact or qoute might grab attention, I’m not sure I’d want to use this approach all the time because it could get repetitive. The section on introducing implied or assumed ideas was particularly useful, as it gave me a solid structure for starting a conversation in my writing whether by presenting the opposing side, stating my own view, or simply framing the context before diving into quotes. I also found most helpful in the text were the examples and templates, which gave me a lot of practical information to use in my own writing. One of the most insightful points was about the order in which things are said. The text explains that to keep readers engaged, a writer should introduce what they’re responding to early on. This made me realize how important it is to organize my thoughts clearly from the start to keep my writing effective and engaging.
This chapter has many templates to open different conversations and breakdown the anatomy of each. Some formats help differentiate the difference between more formal and informal responses, while others help to summarize thoughts into more efficient points. Through these different templates, the chapter makes sure to show the importance of engagement in the physical part of a conversation through listening, accepting, and then presenting ideas formed. It would be difficult to apply all aspects of this chapter since they cannot all affect an essay in ways that would be efficient or even make sense. On page 28 of They Say, I Say paragraph 3, it talks ensuring that if your argument is genuine and responsive to the views of others rather than just being observant, is a crucial part to any conversation or debate topic. This just helps to make sure you have applied approaches that do actually make sense and would help simplify and strengthen a written essay or conversation in many ways.
In the eyes of Nicholas Carr and Sherry Turkle, they have both written detailed articles about how the influence of technology has a mostly negative effect on humans and the interactions with others that follow. Efficiency may not always be the most effective, we as humans constantly look for the easiest avenue to the finish line in a race where we already start in a deficit. In Carr’s article, “Is Google Making Us Stupid?”, page 3 introduces a study about the “power browse” for gaining some amount of information. From paragraph 2, Maryanne Wolf from the study calls this idea the, “We are how we read”, where she worries the immediate effect in which we aggressively chase is weaking the capacity to how we can deeply interact with a text. This is nearly parallel to how humans have become so addicted to the screen and dragging us away from the necessary exposure to interaction where we clearly have more social impact both as an observer and speaker. In Turkle’s, “The Empathy Diaries”, she seems to agree with this and hits the nail right on the head by following up on page 346 paragraph 3 stating, “Because, face-to-face, people ask for things that computers never do”. Both of these ideas pursue the process of how these technologies that we push to the limit of advancement yet limit us and blockade the flow of free thinking and expressiveness in connections we seek in day-to-day life. It is the time that we spend within these interactions where we learn and grow as part of an ever-evolving society.
I found it interesting how after you state the “they say” very first thing in your speech or writing, or whatever it is. You shouldn’t provide all of the details about your view on the topic directly after, but instead, give the reader or listener a sort of sneak peek into where you stand and then wait until a little later to fully address your stance. I also find it interesting that you can put a quote into your writing without introducing it, as long it pertains to the point you are trying to make and is the very beginning of your argument.
When it comes to writing an essay, writers need to be able to essentially find a point to what they are writing. In order to do that, they have to find their thesis and structure their essay around it, but not only that, they need to be able to enter into the wider conversation surrounding the question the essay is trying to tackle. You can’t really just give your own opinion on a matter and then not give the proper context as to what you are even talking about. That is when you have to start mentioning what other people say in regards to the question. If you don’t do this, it leaves the audience questioning the importance of your own side to this question, as there is not greater context to go off of. Also, when writing an essay or setting up a speech to talk about whatever it is you want to discuss, it is important to understand the order of things, specifically with telling an audience what it is you are discussing in the first place. Putting this in before you go into your response or at the very least early into your conversation allows the readers or listeners to stay engaged and allows them to understand what the importance of your opinion is to the greater issue. Lastly, thinking as your response to someone else’s points and that other person’s points as one, or as they respond together. This helps to summarize your ideas and to allow your audience some breathing room to actually be engaged and to not be bored out of their skull.
This chapter, like many of the others, is here to help us write off of other people’s writing and how to do so effectively and correctly. This chapter gave a lot of different helpful templates to use. When discussing Dr. X, they talked about how the point he was making had no value because he wasn’t talking about why he disagreed with another point that was interesting. I find this interesting because during debate type essays, it is difficult to convey how the other point affects you. I find this difficult because sometimes I feel that if I’m talking about the contrary point, it appears that I’m supporting the other point of view. A lot of the templates they discussed in the chapter were about organizing my thoughts and being able to put my thoughts down a lot easier with organization.
14 thoughts on “JOURNAL # 14”
I think that the idea of thinking of your writing in the larger context of the conversation that it is participating in is an insightful perspective for people to have. It brings a certain level of importance and gravity to the work that you are doing and, at least to me, gives me more of a motivation to put my best foot forward in my writing. I feel like when you’re doing work for a school assignment, you’re more inclined to not hold yourself to standards beyond the rubric because it’s “just an assignment for school.” But, when you view it like this, you are inclined to hold yourself to a higher standard. Additionally, I also find the psychology of the order in which the “they say” should be placed to be interesting. I always knew that the “they say” should come before the “I say,” but never bothered to think about why. Now, I see that it is important because I am entering a conversation, and it is far more logical to introduce this conversation that I am entering before I offer my own opinions instead of diving right in. Adding on, I think it is also a way of making sure that my ideas are what the reader walks away with instead of who/what I am responding to. If I included my opinions before explaining other’s, then those ideas would be fresher in the reader’s mind instead of mine. By making sure that my thoughts are the last thing the reader sees in a paragraph, they are more likely to remember my point of view. Furthermore, I appreciate the emphasis that this reading puts on constantly reminding the reader of the claims that you are responding too. I have noticed in my own writing that it is very easy to get lost in your thoughts, and one way that I have learned to combat this is always making sure to anchor back to either my topic sentence or my thesis. I have noticed that this is something that many people struggle to do, and I think that it is a very helpful concept for people to implement into their writing.
Intially, I found the message to “give writing a point” to be interesting. I found this to be interesting, because I feel like there is no point in writing if you do not have a point or no reason. But then further reading uncovered the meaning behind this message: to not only indicate what your thesis is, but to explain what larger conversation is. I found this ideal to be insightful. I think that my past writing was all superficial. I would do “just enough” to answer the prompt or to fulfil the page count. I would simply state my thesis without connecting my topic to the bigger picture or furthering the conversation. Furthermore, I think the sequence that the authors explain was interesting but helpful. It was clear and concise. Explain your “why” early into your writing because not doing so results in a disinterested reader. I feel as though this was an aspect of writing that I overlooked, whether it be an article that I read and quicky lose interest in or in my own writing. I would drone on and on and take multiple paragraphs to fully get my point across. This passage was eye opening for me and my own writing. I also found the author’s advice pertaining to entering arguments extremely helpful. I cannot begin to tell you how many high school debates I participated in, or simple arguments with my siblings, where I could not find my footing. This issue was also prevalent in my writing. Argumentative essays were always the hardest essays for me to write, I think partly because I did not have the proper tools to thoroughly construct an argument. I think what the authors say about “entering conversations with what others are saying and then add your own opinions” is useful and beneficial advice. I know had I had this information when writing argumentative essays, I would have been more successful in using others’ opinions to strengthen the point that I was trying to either argue for or against.
I found it interesting how this chapter really emphasizes the importance of situating one’s argument within a broader conversation. The idea of the thesis not just standing alone but actively responding to something else highlights the interactive nature of academic writing. This approach can help make arguments more engaging and relevant by showing why they matter in the first place. As well as the chapters other focus on introducing what “they say” early on is very helpful as well. The readers need to be able to fully grasp the writers point with context and addressing others’ views whether they are opposing or existing, allows for an even smoother transition into one’s argument. There were also many templates that I find very helpful when learning a new way to write an essay, or something to make it stronger. The template for introducing “they say” is a very good tool, especially since sometimes people can struggle on how to frame their writing. The templates help to make it easier to organize ones owns thoughts, and these can really help and improve one’s writing by making arguments clearer.
“Starting with What Others Say” was an interesting chapter that provided me with insightful tips about how to properly enter a conversation. I found it helpful that the authors suggested some good ways to engage your reader before jumping right into direct quotes, paraphrasing, or summarizing someone else’s work. They Say I Say suggests hooking in your reader by starting with an anecdote, presenting the opposing side of an argument, stating a personal view, or describing a widely held, universal view. The chapter then advises the importance of introducing your “they say” quite early on so that the rest of your writing has a clear purpose. In addition, the authors state the importance of returning to these claims through the implementation of “return sentences” (26) frequently throughout the remainder of your writing to refresh the readers about the main argument. The book provided me with very useful templates to perform all that tactics I have previously laid out, which I found especially useful. All in all, I found this chapter quite helpful and insightful when it comes to teaching me how to properly and effectively enter a conversation to strengthen my own arguments.
When you are writing an argument you should always start off by stating what others have said about the topic, usually the opposite side to your argument. “Remember you are entering a conversation and therefore need to start with ‘what others are saying'” (20). This is helpful to know where to start when beginning your argument.
When you state the opposite side to your argument, “state your own position and the one it’s responding to together” (21). This could probably double as your thesis in your essay.
I like how there are various ways to introduce your view along with someone else’s view. For example, you can start with a quote, a fact, statistic, an anecdote or just simply stating the other idea and your opposing one. Although it is important to note that whichever way you choose must be relevant to your topic. (22).
I like the template for when you are introducing an ongoing debate. Helping you “explore the issue you are writing about before declaring your own view.” (26). This could be helpful as a way to set up your essay with the points you want to talk about.
Something that is helpful about the text is the great amount of examples and templates provided in the text. They truly give us as readers and learners a sufficient amount of information to use in our own work.
Something that was insightful in the text is when it talks about order. “This story also illustrates an important lesson about the order in which things are said: to keep an audience engaged, a writer needs to explain what he or she is responding to—either before offering that response or, at least, very early in the discussion.” its very important to keep the readers of your work engaged and ready to read on, so making sure that everything is in its correct place is insightful
Something I found curious is that “Instead of opening with someone else’s views, you could start with an illustrative quotation, a revealing fact or statistic, or— as we do in this chapter—a relevant anecdote.” I can see why revealing facts/statistics or something along those lines would be a great catcher, but i wouldnt see myself doing so every time because I wouldn’t want it to be redundant.
Something interesting was the specific template for introducing something implied or assumed
Something that I thought was very interesting was introducing the idea of debate. As Graff and Birkenstein point out, Dr. X was unable to debate his point and did not mention any controversy, which made his point feel like it lacks value. The templates for this were very helpful as they gave examples of how to use they say, applying an idea, introducing a debate, or keeping they say in your argument. I relate to Dr. X because sometimes I forget to include my overall argument and continue to ramble. Most of the time, I reread my arguments and find that I forget to include my they say, in which I then include what my overall argument was. Something that I enjoy doing is introducing a controversial topic that is commonly accepted in society and saying how I do not agree with it. Disagreeing with commonly known ideas makes me feel like my argument is more known and attracts readers. One very important reminder for me was to summarize a they say argument and then go into the deeper meaning while also connecting back to the thesis. Lastly, it is most helpful for me to remember to keep it simple and make sure to talk about and make connections to my previous points.
I found that starting with a quote or a fact, rather than someone else’s views interesting. While I can see how a strong fact or qoute might grab attention, I’m not sure I’d want to use this approach all the time because it could get repetitive. The section on introducing implied or assumed ideas was particularly useful, as it gave me a solid structure for starting a conversation in my writing whether by presenting the opposing side, stating my own view, or simply framing the context before diving into quotes. I also found most helpful in the text were the examples and templates, which gave me a lot of practical information to use in my own writing. One of the most insightful points was about the order in which things are said. The text explains that to keep readers engaged, a writer should introduce what they’re responding to early on. This made me realize how important it is to organize my thoughts clearly from the start to keep my writing effective and engaging.
This chapter has many templates to open different conversations and breakdown the anatomy of each. Some formats help differentiate the difference between more formal and informal responses, while others help to summarize thoughts into more efficient points. Through these different templates, the chapter makes sure to show the importance of engagement in the physical part of a conversation through listening, accepting, and then presenting ideas formed. It would be difficult to apply all aspects of this chapter since they cannot all affect an essay in ways that would be efficient or even make sense. On page 28 of They Say, I Say paragraph 3, it talks ensuring that if your argument is genuine and responsive to the views of others rather than just being observant, is a crucial part to any conversation or debate topic. This just helps to make sure you have applied approaches that do actually make sense and would help simplify and strengthen a written essay or conversation in many ways.
In the eyes of Nicholas Carr and Sherry Turkle, they have both written detailed articles about how the influence of technology has a mostly negative effect on humans and the interactions with others that follow. Efficiency may not always be the most effective, we as humans constantly look for the easiest avenue to the finish line in a race where we already start in a deficit. In Carr’s article, “Is Google Making Us Stupid?”, page 3 introduces a study about the “power browse” for gaining some amount of information. From paragraph 2, Maryanne Wolf from the study calls this idea the, “We are how we read”, where she worries the immediate effect in which we aggressively chase is weaking the capacity to how we can deeply interact with a text. This is nearly parallel to how humans have become so addicted to the screen and dragging us away from the necessary exposure to interaction where we clearly have more social impact both as an observer and speaker. In Turkle’s, “The Empathy Diaries”, she seems to agree with this and hits the nail right on the head by following up on page 346 paragraph 3 stating, “Because, face-to-face, people ask for things that computers never do”. Both of these ideas pursue the process of how these technologies that we push to the limit of advancement yet limit us and blockade the flow of free thinking and expressiveness in connections we seek in day-to-day life. It is the time that we spend within these interactions where we learn and grow as part of an ever-evolving society.
this is journal 13, my bad
I found it interesting how after you state the “they say” very first thing in your speech or writing, or whatever it is. You shouldn’t provide all of the details about your view on the topic directly after, but instead, give the reader or listener a sort of sneak peek into where you stand and then wait until a little later to fully address your stance. I also find it interesting that you can put a quote into your writing without introducing it, as long it pertains to the point you are trying to make and is the very beginning of your argument.
When it comes to writing an essay, writers need to be able to essentially find a point to what they are writing. In order to do that, they have to find their thesis and structure their essay around it, but not only that, they need to be able to enter into the wider conversation surrounding the question the essay is trying to tackle. You can’t really just give your own opinion on a matter and then not give the proper context as to what you are even talking about. That is when you have to start mentioning what other people say in regards to the question. If you don’t do this, it leaves the audience questioning the importance of your own side to this question, as there is not greater context to go off of. Also, when writing an essay or setting up a speech to talk about whatever it is you want to discuss, it is important to understand the order of things, specifically with telling an audience what it is you are discussing in the first place. Putting this in before you go into your response or at the very least early into your conversation allows the readers or listeners to stay engaged and allows them to understand what the importance of your opinion is to the greater issue. Lastly, thinking as your response to someone else’s points and that other person’s points as one, or as they respond together. This helps to summarize your ideas and to allow your audience some breathing room to actually be engaged and to not be bored out of their skull.
This chapter, like many of the others, is here to help us write off of other people’s writing and how to do so effectively and correctly. This chapter gave a lot of different helpful templates to use. When discussing Dr. X, they talked about how the point he was making had no value because he wasn’t talking about why he disagreed with another point that was interesting. I find this interesting because during debate type essays, it is difficult to convey how the other point affects you. I find this difficult because sometimes I feel that if I’m talking about the contrary point, it appears that I’m supporting the other point of view. A lot of the templates they discussed in the chapter were about organizing my thoughts and being able to put my thoughts down a lot easier with organization.